This has happened TWICE recently… The scenario goes like this… One party books the location (one was a music video shoot and the other a fashion shoot). And suddenly a week or two later I see pictures all over social media of A DIFFERENT CLIENT having shot at my place as well! Oh, the first client got theirs (photos/video), but they let another (non-renter) come in and shoot their products as well! My attitude is that they have to BOTH pay for the rental. You don’t get to buy one ticket for a movie and then sneak another person in under your coat, right? Same thing here. Be on the lookout for this little trick going around…
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That’s fraud. Did you report this to Peerspace? Where are you located so that other property owners can be on the look out for these people?
Matthew_B
Zoe_G
If they were going to do that they should have cleared it with you in advance and let you make the decision as to whether they would allow it. Personally, I would as long as the number of people do not exceed the original amount and as long as the activity (ie they say it’s a still shoot and then do a video) is not wildly off the original agreement. But that should be up to you.
This is a new one for me as well. As @Sharon_R says, this wouldn’t be allowed under Peerspace’s Community Guidelines that requires users to accurately disclose the nature of their booking. Please clarify whether this was a booking made on Peerspace and if so, let us know who the guest was by emailing help@peerspace.com.
As a reminder, it is your responsibility as a host to make sure your guests understand your rules and that you provide supervision on site to ensure guests use the space as intended in their request to you.
I am confused by your complaint and I would love some clarification:
Did they stay longer than they paid for?
Did they bring enough extra guests to trigger a higher hourly rate?
Did they do damage to your space?
Did they use more consumables than usual?
What exactly did you expect an additional payment for?
Other than the lack of accurate guest-count, why would this be an issue?
Guests pay for time and use. How they use the space is up to them as long as it’s within house rules and legality.
We have no problem if two photography teams want to split a studio rental and cram both shoots in the same place within the same booking time. And we certainly wouldn’t charge anything extra unless they hit our high guest-count thresholds.
I’ve never heard of anyone getting charged extra booking fees for having a second shoot within their own booking.
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I’m in complete agreement with Chris ^ Why would they have to pay twice to rent the space twice?
I am on both sides of the coin. I have a studio that we do shoots in and when it is not being used, we rent it out. If I rented another location and I had extra time on my rental at the end and wanted to take a few extra pictures for another project or with another photographer, I ABSOLUTELY would. There is nothing unethical about that at all. I paid for the space and the time! As long as I am not breaking the rules or bringing extra people, why should the host get to double dip? When I rent the space, I shoot as much in there as I possibly can.
As long as the original renter is willing to assume the responsibility for the 2nd party, which they are because it is their rental, then what is the issue? If they split the time instead and did half day rentals each, you would have made the same amount of money.
Also the movie theather analogy is a bad one. Renters are not buying one single seat in your house like a movie ticket. They are renting the entire space. Head counts on video/photo shoots change all the time. As long as they don’t go over the agreed upon number, I don’t see the issue. If that other photog just sat there and didn’t pick up the camera you wouldn’t have batted an eye. It would have been the exact same scenario for you as the host. In fact you didn’t even know it occurred until you saw the pics afterwards. So I am not seeing the issue other than a desire to double dip on the renters.
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I think that’s wrong. Here’s why. What are we selling? We are selling the opportunity for ONE CLIENT to create marketing assets for their products. We are NOT selling “time” without a purpose. We are selling a SPECIFIC opportunity. If I sign up for a (paid) webinar, I do not get to share the log-in code with my friend so they can take the class for free. Everyone benefiting from the exploitation opportunity has to pay the value of that opportunity. I don’t see anyway around that.
When you buy a ticket for a movie, the ticket is for YOU to see the movie. You don’t get to sneak another person in under your coat to see the name film. Now it doesn’t cost the theatre anything more to show the same movie to two people as one, but there is a LOST OPPORTUNITY COST. You should have had the chance to sell to two people (two tickets, two shoots, etc.) but you were stripped of the second booking by the piggybacking done here.
This is not AirBnB, where someone is renting the space to do whatever they like. No, they are contracting the space for a SPECIFIC PURPOSE (and that’s what our agreement says). And that’s part of the calculus of whether we take the rental or not. Think of it this way… what is the VALUE of your location? It is to produce a shoot for exploitation of some kind. We have strict rules as to what gets used (upcharges for the pool, # of bodies, equipment use, etc.) But the point is they are getting a DOUBLE VALUE out of it for the price of one. (without having pre-arranged it.) By your theory, why not have 10 people shooting if it’s within the same booking timeframe? That’s called a “shootout” and everybody pays their own way. Same thing here. You want to shoot, pay the rent. I think it’s really that simple.
As it was, the first client pleaded poverty so I gave her a discount on the shoot, but then to see ANOTHER COMPANY showing up and spreading their photos (from my house) all over social media and THEIR website when they just essentially CRASHED the shoot, was not cool.
BTW, it’s not cool for the photographer and the models doing double duty as well. (I’m sure they did not get paid double either.) And did the insurance cover two companies? Who knows?!? This ALL should have been covered IN ADVANCE!
Think of it another way… I buy a ticket for an all-you-can-eat dinner at your restaurant but then my friend comes in, doesn’t pay, sits down and I bring her a plate of food from the buffet so she can eat, too, Doesn’t take anymore time, but it eats into my profit. Cramming a second party into a shoot takes away my profit from booking that second party separately (again not arranged in advance.) Bottom line: our “time” is our only asset. That’s what we are selling so WE should have the controlling say as to who gets to use it and not have another party sneak into the deal. WE decide that, not the renter.
I spoke to a location rep yesterday (who does very high end projects X 20 years) who told me she is seeing a trend whereby people used to do low-end BTS video at a photo shoot (for say a high end mag) but NOW, they are hiring a whole second crew to shoot the photoshoot and then using that footage to actually cut a COMMERCIAL for television (a high fee endeavor). Again, I think this is NOT cool.
Bottom line, just be honest with what you intend to do with the space and I will quote you a price based on the usage, but to sneak something in is not cool (otherwise why do they try to sneak it in the first place?)
Does that make sense?
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I also do not see what’s wrong with this.
I regularly have video productions book my space who then also bring a still photographer in to shoot adjacent to the video crew.
I’ve also had production book my studio for holding and to use it as a base while shooting outside on the street. Suddenly, the weather changes and then end up shooting inside. Is that fraud because they used the space for something other than what they claimed in their booking request? No.
As long as (1) the person who booked is responsible for everything that’s going on, (2) They do not bring in more people than they said they would, (3) They don’t break house rules, I don’t see how it’s fraud.
Tim is completely right. A home that gets photographed a certain amount has a value. The more it’s photographed for different usages, the more that value gets used. People doubling up on photographers is already becoming an issue, but teams doubling up on diverse clients is ridiculous, unless made clear from the get go. Christopher, unless you own a white space, where the image of your space has no intrinsic value, you are defeating the effort you made in creating a value at your home. In the real world of locations, this is incredibly important to understand as a concept, otherwise you would be hurting the community of host you are part of.
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A SUPPLEMENTAL LICENSING AGREEMENT
TIM & JONATHAN
Peerspace bookings are governed by a lease agreement - what you both are concerned about would be covered by a supplemental licensing agreement.
You both have good points about uniquely artistic spaces - we have a unique stone fireplace and 19th century marble staircases at one of our studios and are restrictive about shooting them - BUT the general Peerspace agreement includes an unlimited license to use any images captured in host spaces UNLESS you include a supplemental agreement that supersedes that blanket option and describe it clearly in your rules.
This is up to you as a host, not Peerspace.
If you want to control the brands that use images of your space, you should require a specific license for each photo shoot, and you should also charge a separate fee, name a single person, company, or brand as covered by the license, define specific uses, and have a physically separate agreement from the Peerspace app.
Clearly define who is allowed to create art in your space and what they are allowed to do with that art once created.
Be sure to include a use and time limit such as “social media and web use only, 2 years” or “Unlimited distribution for print, digital, and production”.
Then you may legally call out any second party that hasn’t paid you a licensing fee to use images of your space. Social media platforms will take down any flagged content and request the posters produce a valid license agreement.
Clearly state at the top of your rules that because of the unique artistic nature of your space, ALL rentals and use of the space by ANY party must include a supplemental licensing agreement. Include information that the space is legally trademarked or branded (and be sure to get a trademark or register a brand for your interiors).
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FYI - for legal clarification on some of your previous points:
“This is not AirBnB, where someone is renting the space to do whatever they like.”
Legally this is EXACTLY what they are booking your space for - to use it for any activity that is allowed by federal, state and local law, and as-agreed upon with the owner of the space. BUT your personal rules are less enforceable than federal, state, and local law, and even those rules are difficult to enforce without major damage. The people who enforce rules avoid enforcement that costs more than it conserves.
“No, they are contracting the space for a SPECIFIC PURPOSE (and that’s what our agreement says).”
Legally guests can pretty much do whatever they want inside your space as long as they don’t violate the law or cause damage, regardless of the agreement you have with them.
You can kick them out mid-booking for violating your house rules or the law, but you can’t do much more than that unless the activity requires calling the police - e.g. they refuse to leave after you kick them out.
YOUR ANALOGIES:
- Peerspace bookings are lease agreements - as a host, you are legally handing over control of your real property to another person who has rights you may be unaware of
- Movie tickets are not lease agreements, they are a temporary viewing license - ticket holders are not leasing a seat at the theater, the seat is provided as a condition of purchasing the viewing license and is in fact, not guaranteed (much like a cheap plane ticket).
- A buffet is a retail sale of prepared food, not a rental of real property
- As a Peerspace host, you are legally sub-leasing your real property on a commercial basis, and are governed by real estate law in California.
- “real property” is a legal term that basically means “land and the buildings on it”
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@Christopher_D thank you! I didn’t have the energy to explain it to them. Glad you did. It amazes me that some hosts do not understand the business they’re in.
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Think of it this way… From the MODEL’s point of view.
Someone rents a model from an agency for 4 hours for a shoot (say a clothing line…) Suddenly, another magazine shows up to glom onto the shoot and starts photographing the model too. Should the model (or agent) just say, oh well I was booked for 4 hours so ANYONE can shoot me as much as they like?
I say NO WAY. A person has every right to decide where their image should go. What if the first shoot was for a lingerie catalog and the second photo was from Guns and Ammo? If they (model and agency) knew this they would have passed. Same thing here. If I knew someone was going to crash the shoot without telling me in advance I would have passed.
There are laws about reliance and false representation. This is not about “they can do whatever they want (legally) when they rent your space.” This is about FALSE REPRESENTATION.
What if a film company rents my space for a music video and a SECOND crew shows up to film a SNUFF FILM (or some other kind of movie I would never let me house be in. Say porn…) DO I not have the right to block that if that was not what the original rental was contracted for? OF COURSE I DO!
I understand flexibility and freedom to shoot what you like but I also understand house rules. There are certain things I don’t want my ($5 million estate) being used for and if it wasn’t disclosed up front, then I say kick them out (or take further action in necessary.)
They certainly don’t get two shoots for one price without negotiating that in advance. Otherwise everyone would do it!
Yes, Tim, as I said, in your case you should use a licensing agreement since your property is unique and you wish to exert more control over images captured on premises.
If someone else shoots in your space without permission during the time of a booking but doesn’t violate any other terms, there isn’t a lot Peerspace can do other than reprimand or ban the original user.
They don’t have the capacity to hunt down copyright infringement on your behalf and they can’t arbitrarily charge the guest again for the same time slot. It’s really up to you to add and enforce extra rules - Peerspace is just a booking platform.
Some of the things you can do on your own:
- You can charge a deposit equal to the cost of the booking and clearly state in your rules that any additional parties caught shooting in the space will cause the deposit to be forfeit. Bonus Tip - you will want to charge this yourself so you can exert full control over the deposit. If you use a platform’s deposit mechanism, the platform takes control over the deposit as well as whether or not you can keep any of it, and you don’t want them making that decision for you.
- You can call the police while the shoot is occurring and have the unwelcome guests escorted off premises.
- you can stick around for the shoot the whole time to prevent other parties from joining
- you can hire a security guard for every shoot and/or require that the guest pay for it
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Christopher, thanks for your input… I am trying not to make a federal case out of it. I think this was just a small time scam, BUT I just found out the modeling agency also got scammed in all this as well. They rented their models to a single client and did not KNOW another company was shooting them for their marketing materials as well. They were very upset and told me that if they had been told about that, they would have charged double as that was the result of what they (the client) ended up with. Two shoots within one.
I agree that all this can and should be covered in a separate agreement apart from the general Peerspace rules and we actually have such an agreement that was signed by Client #1 (but not #2, of course!) Someone said there could be insurance issues too if #2 had an accident but we were not covered for it.
BOTTOM LINE: I just want people to be aware of this potential scam and believe you should be renting to the contracted party and if they want other clients to be part of it, they need to make those arrangements in advance. This is not AirBnB (who has ruined much of this location rental business for many owners when clients think they have the place for 24 hours and can do whatever they want.) Peerspace (and production shoots in general) are a completely different proposition and need rules in accordance with what the usage is all about. That’s all. Thanks for your advice on this.
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